Curse

Lourens · Apr 16, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

I'm not buying it. I do not participate in micro-transactions in MMOs, because they generally just get worse and worse as time goes on.

After you bought 1 tab your not forced to buy more.

rohara · Apr 16, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

It's not just type in your credit card and it's all done. The credit card company charges a fee, the people at ANet doing the paper work on the transaction need to get paid (billing and collections people plus accounting), Electric bill needs paid, as does the bill for the modem lines that receive their transactions. There are ALOT of hidden costs involved with an electronic Credit Card transaction that you don't see. It's called Overhead and Indirect Labor those cost MUST be accounted for to avoid taking a loss.

Learn how the real world works, kthxbye.

i'm a developer and i've worked with several major payment processing companies, and i'm well aware of how they work, kthxbye. they don't charge $5 per transaction because that isn't practical for small transactions. would you pay $5 for a banana? hell no. their fees are usually calculated based on the purchase price or have a low, set rate. besides, anet does offer 2 items for $4.99, so your point is moot regardless - "living" proof that there is no $5 transaction fee. realistically, i'd guess the overall cost of one transaction is more on par with $1-$2 depending on the price of items purchased.

Shursh · Apr 16, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

since i only have one account, i might consider buying an extra storage tab or two.

but then again:
1. i don't play as much as i used to.
2. when faced with a $10 charge, i might take a closer look at what I already have in my storage, and throw out or sell junk that i never use anyway.

Lest121 · Apr 16, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

/signed

If GW had a Auction hall there would be no need for extra storage, what I hate the most about GW is selling my own stuff wasting time in Kamadan typing WTS or WTB, the reason why I need extra storage because I have stuff to sell and I don't feel like taking the time to sit in Spamadan................. I currently play 2 MMO's and the other one has a AH, and I don't have a storage problem, and they have less storage then GW, not paying $10 for storage.

zwei2stein · Apr 16, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

i'm a developer and i've worked with several major payment processing companies, and i'm well aware of how they work, kthxbye. they don't charge $5 per transaction because that isn't practical for small transactions. would you pay $5 for a banana? hell no. their fees are usually calculated based on the purchase price or have a low, set rate. besides, anet does offer 2 items for $4.99, so your point is moot regardless - "living" proof that there is no $5 transaction fee. realistically, i'd guess the overall cost of one transaction is more on par with $1-$2 depending on the price of items purchased.

In company where I work, issuing invoice to our customer costs about 300$.

No kidding.

Those GW's 5$ are too much for automated bank-to-bank transaction, sure, but quite right if they go thought accounting & billing (which they should).

JR · Apr 16, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

I think it's fairly obvious by now that had it been possible for ArenaNet to implement an Auction House they would have. It's been up there with the most popular suggestions since release.

With that in mind, your post doesn't address the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by underverse_ninja

/signed

If GW had a Auction hall there would be no need for extra storage, what I hate the most about GW is selling my own stuff wasting time in Kamadan typing WTS or WTB, the reason why I need extra storage because I have stuff to sell and I don't feel like taking the time to sit in Spamadan................. I currently play 2 MMO's and the other one has a AH, and I don't have a storage problem, and they have less storage then GW, not paying $10 for storage.

fog_of_redoubt · Apr 16, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Guys, I havent read the whole thread yet... But has anyone done the math?

There are many posts discussing database size and storage requirements driving this $10 charge.

There have been speculations on the amount of extra storage space needed in the database per account. I will pick the lowest one to start with. Someone mentioned 1k worth of data needed to support the extra storage.

For simplicity I am going to use a 100Gig HD at a cost of $250 (I can actually get a 300G drive for under $300). Now for redundancy reasons lets use 4 100G drives, at a total cost of $1000.00

At 1k per account, 1 million accounts will use 1 Gig of storage space (someone can check my math to make sure I don't have a zero off, but it wont matter).

The cost of 4x100G ($1000) / 1k per user = .00001 $ Yes, less than a penny per user for storage, 1/1000 of a penny (now that is a micro transaction)

Now, lets assume that 1k per account was off by a factor of 100, or even a factor of 1000. The storage cost of supporting this upgrade is mouse nuts, it is a rounding error.

Do they need to charge for it for the upgrade? Have they moved from the "free to play" model to the "micro transaction" model? Yes they have.

Lets not confuse micro transactions with mega transaction. $1.99, $2.99 ok, $9.99 nope. I can buy a new copy of Proph or Factions for $9.99

Anyone paying $9.99 for the upgrade is a blind fool.

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 16, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fog_of_redoubt

Guys, I havent read the whole thread yet... But has anyone done the math?

There are many posts discussing database size and storage requirements driving this $10 charge.

There have been speculations on the amount of extra storage space needed in the database per account. I will pick the lowest one to start with. Someone mentioned 1k worth of data needed to support the extra storage.

For simplicity I am going to use a 100Gig HD at a cost of $250 (I can actually get a 300G drive for under $300). Now for redundancy reasons lets use 4 100G drives, at a total cost of $1000.00

At 1k per account, 1 million accounts will use 1 Gig of storage space (someone can check my math to make sure I don't have a zero off, but it wont matter).

The cost of 4x100G ($1000) / 1k per user = .00001 $ Yes, less than a penny per user for storage, 1/1000 of a penny (now that is a micro transaction)

Now, lets assume that 1k per account was off by a factor of 100, or even a factor of 1000. The storage cost of supporting this upgrade is mouse nuts, it is a rounding error.

Do they need to charge for it for the upgrade? Have they moved from the "free to play" model to the "micro transaction" model? Yes they have.

Lets not confuse micro transactions with mega transaction. $1.99, $2.99 ok, $9.99 nope. I can buy a new copy of Proph or Factions for $9.99

Anyone paying $9.99 for the upgrade is a blind fool.

There is more to it than just the space cost, the panels just don't appear by themselves.

Gli · Apr 16, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Some people should try and look beyond their own playing style and preference before they denounce others as blind fools.

I plan to buy extra panels, and they'll suit me much better than extra characters or extra accounts.

Why, you ask? Because I'm not a packrat, and with just 2 or 3 more panels in addition to what I expect from the equipment packs, I will have no more need for any mules at all. Right now, some of my characters keep a small amount of stuff. One keeps stacks of dye, one keeps stacks of tomes, some keep a few assorted trinkets. None of them use more than 10 slots (1 bag) for that purpose.

Give me a few panels and I'll never mule again, which I definitely consider to be worth a few bucks.

Empress Amarox · Apr 16, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

The point isn't if it would be useful or not, the point is you're overpaying by a huge margin for what you're getting.

Yichi · Apr 16, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I already spent money on the damned BMP and 2 extra char slots. Unless something completely outstanding comes with the storage tabs, anet will not get any more money out of me unless its for an expansion/gw2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress Amarox

The point isn't if it would be useful or not, the point is you're overpaying by a huge margin for what you're getting.

This is the reason I would never buy them compared to buying another char slot or a cheap account from somewhere like amazon or a game store.

Ec]-[oMaN · Apr 16, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Boycott it if you must...It's Anets way of making you purchase a new account for their sales department/figures. Then they can boast about how many new copies they've sold in Q2 '09.

DreamWind · Apr 16, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Things that are fine to sell: Appearances and vanity. Not fine: Pretty much anything else. You should have all the best functionality right out of the box.

I'm actually not fully in agreement of this statement. But since I agree with most of it I won't elaborate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabwatt

From your registration date I assume you have played GW from nearly the beginning, but you seem to have forgotten that Anet have added more storage over the years..... they added new tabs for every campaign you bought plus they added the crafting material tag (which saved a lot of storage space)

Ok my memory is really bad, but didn't they only have like 2 storage upgrades through the history of the game? I don't remember it being per campaign. I only remember they added a storage pane that holds materials and then they added a few more tabs for everybody. But this was MUCH later...like years later I remember because storage has always been the #1 complaint from people...more than auction house or balance or more than just about anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Monthly subscription or Chapter based business model with microtransactions. Take your pick.

You don't want to pay a sub? Fine. Stop whining about the alternative.

Long time no see JR. But anyways your post basically sums up the problem...I don't want to play EITHER type of game. Guild Wars didn't use to fit either one of those categories and now it does. I bought Guild Wars partially because it wasn't this (among other reasons). I think it is perfectly legit to whine about that change and others that have happened to this game.

Gli · Apr 16, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress Amarox

The point isn't if it would be useful or not, the point is you're overpaying by a huge margin for what you're getting.

That's for everyone to decide for themselves. Which is why it's such a moronic notion to boycott a product for finding it overpriced. Reasonable people would just not buy it and call it not buying it.

Ate of DK · Apr 16, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Offcourse I am not going to pay for extra storage. Because I never needed extra storage in the first place.

Fril Estelin · Apr 16, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Guild Wars didn't use to fit either one of those categories and now it does.

I disagree, it doesn't. GW2 may be, but not GW1. I think you're just too "purist" (not to say "fundamentalist") to see that change is needed, but it's not black&white. I don't believe that it's a GW business model change, I think Anet has simply a more flexible approach than other companies.

BrettM · Apr 16, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress Amarox

The point isn't if it would be useful or not, the point is you're overpaying by a huge margin for what you're getting.

How do you know what it cost ANet to provide this? If you're basing this opinion just on what it costs to buy a bit of disk space, then you're way off.

It's been pointed out by several posters in this thread that disk space is only the beginning. Double, triple, or quadruple that for replication. Add in costs of bandwidth, for replication and to pump all the extra data out to the clients every time they open storage. Perhaps faster hardware because of scaling issues caused by a big increase in database size. More system memory to account for a bunch more data showing up whenever someone opens their storage.

Figure all of that, and then figure in the costs that went into developing and promoting this upgrade. Design, programming, server support, QA, and more.

Now, tell me what this margin is that you're calling "huge". Give me a number, or at least a percentage over cost. Even an approximate percentage. Back up your statement that the overpayment is huge.

EagleDelta1 · Apr 16, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

How do you know what it cost ANet to provide this? If you're basing this opinion just on what it costs to buy a bit of disk space, then you're way off.

It's been pointed out by several posters in this thread that disk space is only the beginning. Double, triple, or quadruple that for replication. Add in costs of bandwidth, for replication and to pump all the extra data out to the clients every time they open storage. Perhaps faster hardware because of scaling issues caused by a big increase in database size. More system memory to account for a bunch more data showing up whenever someone opens their storage.

Figure all of that, and then figure in the costs that went into developing and promoting this upgrade. Design, programming, server support, QA, and more.

Now, tell me what this margin is that you're calling "huge". Give me a number, or at least a percentage over cost. Even an approximate percentage. Back up your statement that the overpayment is huge.

Not to mention Network management costs and the cost of pulling/subbing ppl for GW2 to help with the update(face it - an update like this can't be done in 4 months with only 2 ppl). DO NOT assume any of you knows what it costs to design, program, implement, and maintain a system like this. Until you do stop whining. Also, ANET IS A BUSINESS TRYING TO MAKE MONEY, pleasing/supporting customers is ALWAYS second to this. THIS IS NOT YOUR RUN OF THE MILL ONLINE GAME THAT REQUIRES LITTLE SUPPORT FROM THE DEVS. You don't like micro transactions? Don't pay for them or go play a game that doesn't have a need for them. GW may not be a typical MMO, but it still requires far more resources just to run than something like Left4Dead, COD4, or ANY game that runs on player managed servers. Not to mention that ISPs are raising costs and/or putting bandwidth limits of customers(both business and home) and ANet has to make up these costs somehow as well as pay for GW2 development. They aren't like other MMO devs, like Square Enix or Blizzard, who HAVE other ips beyond their MMO to bring in revenue. They ONLY have GW and it's pretty clear that the box sales are dwindling. Would you rather they don't charge, run out of money and then drop ALL support for GW and ALL dev of GW2?(I know that's extreme, but it IS a possibility)

Empress Amarox · Apr 16, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

How do you know what it cost ANet to provide this? If you're basing this opinion just on what it costs to buy a bit of disk space, then you're way off.

No, I'm basing it off of a little something called reality. It's nice, you should try it sometime - very healthy for you too.

Fril Estelin · Apr 16, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress Amarox

No, I'm basing it off of a little something called reality.

So your reality is of someone working in an MMO company? Or game dev/designer? Or a programmer? Because BrettM's post sounds much more realistic (same linguistic root as reality).